It seems like so many different factors in your child’s life can cause sleep disruptions. But night time fears can leave you feeling really unprepared and unsure how to deal. Our goal with this podcast is to educate you on some big dos and don'ts so you feel slightly more prepared when those night time fears crop up!

 

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How to handle nightmares and night fears: allthesleeps.com/nightmares-and-night-fears/

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Episode 13: Dos & don'ts of dealing with night time fears

Night time fears
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of sleep talking moms, and today we are going to talk about what to do when your child is scared at bedtime when they have nighttime fears, and we kind of thought this would be fitting this was a great idea by Kayla since we have Halloween coming up, and it's almost spooky season. And, you know what this actually our story, we want to share another Kayla Karianna story too before we like hop into the sleep step, and I was just thinking, the one that we pick to share about kind of fits in because it's a costume, it's a costume story. Yeah, yeah, okay, Kayla Do you want to share this story with them, you want to start.

Sure, sure, sure. Okay, so we were not in classes together very often throughout our entire schooling. Never. It was a bummer almost never. I was more of a, like, middle of the road kind of student and carry and I was in a lot of advanced things you were to, you

know, man.

But anyways, so we ended up being in the same philosophy class. As I don't know, like, there were just a lot of really cool people in that class, like two of our at the time best guy friends were in it. And it was just, it was a blast. So, we were reading the book metamorphosis by Franz Kafka, and that you remember the author's name, I love these books I know you weren't like super into them I love them. Um, and so we just gotten done reading those and our assignment was to recreate, like a pivotal moment in that book. And so we picked this moment and I don't remember what the symbolism was at all, but we pick this moment where the protagonist was throwing apples at at a cockroach. Okay, so this was happening, like, the week of the week before spring break is when it was supposed to happen Karianna couldn't I don't remember if you went on vacation, like, a little bit before and so we missed it or something. So we had to wait all of spring break, and then the next day, Monday, that we came back we had to do our skit, And so I was wearing a giant box, like just ahead and my arms cut out and I was crawling on the floor and Karianna was throwing these apples at me. These apples had been sitting for a couple of weeks at this point, and they were rotten. And so the second sheet through the first Apple, it just exploded, and all over the classroom, all over the classroom all over people. Our teacher was cracking up. And we just kept doing it, and it was such a funny time, it was I

mean really, if we had had a different teacher we probably would have gotten into so much trouble but Mr rumps was just like, he thought it was hilarious, and he was.

Yeah, I hated, I hated the class but he made it bearable because that was just not my class, not at all. Yeah, it was so much fun though. And it was it was just a great group of people and so we were just always having fun and messing around. Did we learn a lot. Not sure

not probably school related things.

No, but it was like, memorable. So,

yeah, that's. And now I can say that I have been able to throw rotten apples at my best friend. Yeah, I

was, I was telling Carianna before we started recording that I really wish that we could just videotape some moments in our lives because I would definitely just like automatically because I would watch that one over and over and over again. It was so funny.

Oh man. Okay, so yes, that kind of ties into what we're talking about and Kayla, you are more of the you get into like the decorating for Halloween stuff.

Yes I love holidays I love decorating for holidays, I never thought I would be this mom but I am this mom. So, like the beginning of September is fair game for Halloween. So we have a bunch of stuff outside. We have a Jason, so my husband made a life size human shape out of trash bags and newspapers, and so we put a Jason mask on it and he's in like flannel shirt and jeans and he's sitting next to a skeleton, and they're having coffee on our front porch. We get far too into it like I already have my kids costumes. I'm ready.

Oh my gosh, I don't and yeah so we're recording this and it's like, still mid September I have no clue what my boy is are going to be for Halloween I got to get on that.

Well I think for me, um, you know, like, my kids are at the age where they're like, constantly changing what they want to be like every two seconds. And so, I was able to plan ahead because I'm right, he's almost two, he's gonna be Mr Rogers, and I got my little red card again and it like fits his personality because he's just a little sweetie sensitive little boy. And then, LS has been watching a lot of I don't know if any of your kids enjoy Steven Maggie, but it's like his most favorite show, and they talk a lot about Halloween pumpkins. So Ellis has to be a pumpkin that's all he's talked about, oh, four weeks already.

So that'll be cute. Yeah, it'll

be fun.

That'll be cute. Yeah, I'm definitely at the age with my voice where if we decide to early, we'll buy costumes, and then they're going to change their minds and I am not buying two sets of costumes so

no way

we'll wait. We'll wait a little bit, it's probably gonna be like a dinosaur or a transformer we're not that creative around here so, Kayla we talked a little before and you mentioned that you guys really haven't dealt much with beers yet, at the stage you're in. And I know that with my boys, we have had some random beers here and there. We haven't had a ton of consistent fears and honestly I feel like part of that is, it deals with temperament and personality but another part that I feel is really helpful. At least from our from our approach and our side of things is that our boys have always slept alone in their rooms, they've always slept in the dark, so it's not like it's something that comes and goes for them, or is foreign. And so I think that has helped a lot with the nighttime fears. So, if you're listening and you have a younger child, this is just my encouragement to you, to keep those good habits, to have them be the norm, because that can lessen those fears, versus when we kind of go back and forth like sometimes you sleep with mom sometimes you sleep on your own, that can, that's where some of those fears can crop up

more, okay so if at any point you are concerned or you are dealing with nighttime fears, what are some of the do's and don'ts to help your child through this time,

I would say the first probably do and don't, I would say, do talk about what your child is scared of during the day, so it's, it's good to talk about it. We don't want to talk about it at night. In the moment so if they're expressing the fears at bedtime or in the middle of the night, we don't want to stop and talk about it then we want to wait till sometime during the day when things don't feel as scary to talk through and, you know, depending on the age of your child, it may just be more of a one way conversation you may just be saying, you know, I know you were scared last night. You may be asking them to tell you what they're scared of you may be asking them to draw what they're scared up so you can see and talk about it but totally okay to talk about it, we just don't want to do it at night in the moment.

Okay, well, because we don't want to talk about what they're going through in the moment. What are some things that you can do or say, in that moment,

all right yeah so that's a great question because we want to know what we should be doing when our child is expressing a fear. And what I would recommend first is, whatever it is that we are saying to them, and whatever it is that you may be feeling inside. You want to make sure that you are exuding confidence that you are exuding calm that you aren't showing them that you are anxious or unsure about what they're expressing we don't want it to seem big and scary to them, and the way that it seems even scarier is if you kind of don't know how to handle it or you seem unsure. So be confident and whatever your responses and, you know, try not to hesitate. So, for example, the last time we dealt with a nighttime fear. It totally came out of nowhere, I was not prepared for it. Honestly, if I, because I, you know, deal with families all the time I felt very prepared but I was not like it was just out of nowhere so it pays to be a little prepared and to kind of think this through before it actually happens. But like the first thing out of my son's mouth after he told me he was scared, was he asked, Can I come sleep with you tonight. And that's like, not something that we do like not even on the table right right like probably once. I don't know, once a quarter, we may do asleep over. But that's, that's really it. So when he asked that, you know, your first instinct is to kind of like waver or be like, oh, probably not buddy, you know, but that kind of gives them almost a Oh, that was a probably that wasn't a no so maybe I should keep pushing it. So I was just very know you're gonna sleep in your room tonight but let's, let's talk about this let me come in and comfort. So be confident. Try not to hesitate in your responses, and then it's okay to comfort so do comfort do reassure them, if they're already falling asleep on their own if that's your norm, then typically we don't want to stay in there until they're asleep. If you can avoid it sometimes that that may not be avoidable, and that's okay you can always get back on track. But what I find when we stay in the room with them is that presents a message to them that they do need protecting from something they should be scared that you are going to stay there. And when we kind of keep to business as usual it more presents that message of, it's okay to be scared, you are safe. That's why we don't need to do anything different, because this isn't, you know, some big scary thing that's going to happen. Does that make sense.

That makes total sense yeah and it just like reminds me with everything that has to do with sleep training, and you know kind of behavior, training, I guess is what you call it for kids is that consistency being sure of yourself, and kind of like giving them like a, you know, No, we don't do this, or just being certain is certain and consistent, is so important.

Yeah, yeah because they take their cues from us. And so, the times that we are unsure inconsistent I mean that that is directly going to affect how they respond. I think the last big like do and don't I would say is I'm going to say the don't first so don't feel like you have to shelter your child from ever feeling scared. I think that's a natural instinct for us. But when we think through that we know like, my child is going to have ups and downs in their life, they're going to have times when they're scared and times when they're not scared, and they will need to learn to navigate that and what better way and place for them to learn to navigate that. Then, in the safety of your home during your predictable nightly routines, you know, so don't feel like you have to shelter them from that, then, for the do the flip side of this because we aren't worrying about sheltering them from ever feeling afraid, we do want to give them concrete things that they can do when they feel scared because we know throughout their lifetime, they're going to have moments of feeling afraid, that's part of being a human, so let's give them concrete things, so this is gonna, you know obviously changed depending on their age, they may have a stuffed animal or a lobby that you encourage them to snuggle or to protect when they feel scared. I've had I've had families tell their little ones before like if they sleep on their side to flip to the other side or flip their pillow over as a way to kind of mimic changing the channel in their brain so change it from this theory thoughts to the good thoughts right super simple, or you know other things with your child if there is maybe a particular character or thing that they love. I mean, it's funny, this is actually going to sound ridiculous but, I mean my boys are obsessed with dinosaurs right now. So for them, this would be comforting for some kids thinking about dinosaurs would not be comforting. But for my boys that would be it. So I would encourage them to lay down close their eyes and create like a Jurassic Park world in their brain and think about all those things that they love to think about maybe it's creating a frozen world in their brain. And really, like, sit down and do it with them at times so you can talk through like, do you see what's the land called where what's, what's the frozen land called is it Aaron Dell. Night time fears

Yeah, I don't know how you do that.

So like, talk them through like can you create Aaron dal in your mind, can you see the castle what's Elsa doing so really talking them through something that they can focus on that makes them happy, and then that's also just going to obviously steer their mind, they can't think about Elsa and also think about something that they're, that is scaring them so it really helps to distract and redirect, night time fears

No, this is so funny because it like just like, I don't know, it made me remember something. So, when I was like way too old to be like super scared about scary dreams. Are you ever I don't know I feel like they like sometimes you have like adult scary dreams when it's just like, yeah, bigger things but, you know, Frankenstein or something. But I anytime I would have a bad dream, I would sing. I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream in my head and this was like high school, college and then I would go through in my head and I would think about all of the flavors of ice cream that I could until i. So,

you were cream dreamscape,

yes I was creating my own happiness but I think that this is also like a really good opportunity for you to maybe talk about, you know like, it depends on how scientific you are if you're one of those parents that does a lot of like emotional and feeling talks. But this is a really great time to talk about like, it's okay to feel scared. And, you know, feeling scared is a normal biological response by your body and talk about you know, the things that they can do anytime that they're scared, not just night fears but anytime that they're feeling scared whether it's of heights at the park, or you know somebody is being mean to them, things that they can do that can help them throughout their life for the fear emotion. Night time fears

Yeah, yes, absolutely, absolutely and I love that you said that because of what I would say you know parents are looking for, like, Okay, we've talked about these, how do I like respond in the moment, you know, I would recommend that we validate how they're feeling right so I know you're scared. I know you're scared. It's okay to be scared, validate that reassure them, you're safe, you know, mom is right here or mom is right down in the living room or mom is right outside your door so reassure them, and then that exposure piece is really important too, so we can't expect them to just magically The fear goes away one day that's not how it works right. It's that systematic exposure to it, and then learning to cope through it and gaining confidence that makes that anxiety and that fear smaller and smaller and smaller, each time. So I would say validate reassure, and then expose them to it so follow through with your usual nighttime routines, night time fears

and I don't know if what you would say. But do you recommend like spending time in their room if it's specifically their room like during the day like I don't know, I know that like us, we just had our power out yesterday, for a lot of the day, and so I made sure like I was like oh this is a great opportunity. The rooms dark because we have the stuff up on the windows and so I gave the boys, flashlights, I had a flashlight, and we played in the room just to show like it's safe. There, you know, this is your bed, this is your stuff these things are all here, and you're okay. Yes. No, I Night time fears

love that idea Kayla I'm so glad you mentioned that because that's something else you can do if you have a child that's expressing particularly a fear of the dark is giving them like giving them a flashlight at night so having the lights off for sleep like giving them a flashlight and telling them, you know, if you're scared, you can turn this off so kind of giving them some feelings of control back over that. But yeah, then just playing, playing in the dark playing with flashlights spending time in their room like that. That's a great idea because that is exposing them to it, and giving them those positive experiences that oh my room was very dark and I was in there, and I was fine and everything was safe. So yeah, I love that. I'm glad you said that. night time fears

And while we're kind of on the trail of like what to do. I've seen a lot of things out about monsters spray. What is. What's your thought on that. So,

I'm not a huge fan of monster spray. But I will say like if you're using monster spray and it's working well for you, like, there, there's nothing wrong with that, go ahead and keep using it like I this is not, you know, not to make you feel bad about that at all. What I think monster spray conveys to kids, is that they need protecting from something right so we're spraying for monsters. It's almost like we're saying okay monsters are real, you should be scared of them, we're gonna spray to protect you from them. And if we think about it, that's probably not the message we want to be sending to them right we don't want to be sending the message that monsters are real and you should be scared, so that's why I lean away from Monster spray because I would rather just go like the honest straight up route and say, monsters aren't real, it's okay to feel scared but you're safe monsters aren't real, rather than kind of playing into this imaginary land where they are real and we need to protect our little ones from it. So, again no shade if you do use monster spray, but that is why I don't recommend monster spray when I work with families dealing with these issues. night time fears

Alright guys that's it for today's show. Thank you guys so much for listening. Take care and have a good week. Thank you so much for listening to the sleep talking moms podcast, we hope you are walking away from this episode, feeling empowered and encouraged to tackle your sleep issues. If you enjoyed the episode please take a second to grab a screenshot, share it in your Instagram stories, and tag us at all the sleeps. See you next time. Night time fears

Nobody likes separation anxiety. Not the parent, not the child, and definitely not the person you are passing your child off too! Unfortunately it's just one of those growing pains for children that we all go through.

Listen in as Kayla and I share our own experiences with separation anxiety and leave you with some solid tips for handling separation anxiety like a boss without compromising sleep in the process.

Also see:

Four tips to handle separation anxiety without compromising sleep

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Episode 8: How to handle separation anxiety like a boss

How to handle separation anxiety like a boss. we are going to talk about separation anxiety, which everybody loves separation anxiety, right? Yeah, it is kind of a current favorite over here. So this will be really great for us to talk about. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I know that Kayla, you can relate to this, for sure. So many parents I've talked to it's separation anxiety. Now, when it happens in this age we're in is just so much harder, because so many of our kids have been with us 24, seven, or, you know, have not been around other caregivers as much as usual because of COVID. And so it just makes it that much more frustrating, and so much more of a struggle. Absolutely, we are definitely there. And I'll be excited to kind of share our stories. Because I know that we are on over here, we've been at the very, very, like, most extreme COVID bubble out of anybody that I know. So I have, I have a little bit of insight into what that looks like how we've handled it, that type of thing. So if you're anywhere between, not as I don't know, not as what's, what's the word I'm looking for? strict or Yeah, that is strict, or Yeah, you're on one martius part of this. Yes. If you're on one part of the spectrum or the other. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss I think that we definitely have some advice that we can give you there. Yes, yeah. So let's talk a little about why separation anxiety happens. So really, it can happen anytime, after usually around six months. That is when object permanence happens, which, if you haven't heard of object permanence, basically, it means, you know, you put a ball in front of your baby, you take the ball away and put it behind your back, when they've reached object permanence, they understand that that ball still exists, even though it's they can't see it. And before that point, they they don't recognize that, okay, mom or dad exist outside of myself, when they're, you know, in a different room. And so when they do realize that, it just means they're gonna miss you more, and they're going to, you know, have a harder time separating from you. So yeah, lots of fun there. Usually, you know, it can peak it, it's different for every child, but we see a lot of it kind of peeking around that eight month range. And then around 18 months, those I would say, are the peak times when, at least on my end, I hear of it disrupting sleep a lot, doesn't mean that you can't have a 10 month old or a 13 month old who also struggles with it. But those are just some typical times where it really rears its ugly head. Okay, so you kind of talked about why separation anxiety happens, and when we can usually see it, but how does it present? What does it look like so that our audience knows what they can be looking out for? Yeah, what to look for. So typically, it's going to be any time that you know, your child is maybe suddenly freaking out or upset when you leave the room. Maybe you're not even leaving the room, but you're leaving their field of vision. You know, they can't see you because you are, you know, on the other side of a wall or something, anytime that you're kind of leaving their field of vision. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss That's when it can happen. And you know, it's just going to be protesting and sometimes it's going to present more with that primary caregiver and it may not present with anyone else. So if you're a stay at home mom, you may only experience it when you're leaving their field division, it may not be when their other caregivers leave. Or it could be when any caregiver you know is leaving their field division. It just depends on the child. A lot of times we will see it in tears at daycare drop off or at nap and bedtime, which is why we're talking about this because those are times when you will be setting them down. Leaving. So that's usually what it's going to present at the end. Kayla, I know that you, you know, like you said, you guys have dealt with this on and off, you've dealt with it. Maybe a little to the extreme side, I'm sure you would say because of COVID. And absolutely, just share some of your experience about what you guys have gone through. Sure. Okay, so our our smallest child irey, he is on his way to being two years old. So most of his life has been COVID. He has been to one restaurant, he has been to a grocery store one time. So his experiences have been us and at home. And I am immunocompromised. So I was really big on not letting anybody in that includes when we moved all the way back to my hometown, that includes, you know, my best friend, that includes my mom not coming in. And so we rely heavily my husband and I on each other. I am a stay at home parent. And so that first kind of eight month one, I remember not being as big, but it was way bigger with me. I'm sorry, I kind of always say I don't know if any of you guys watched the show dinosaurs. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss But the baby on there slaps the dad with a pan and says that the mama at our house, it is very much mama and not the mama. And everybody that is not me is not the mama. So we had a little bit of that happened. But like most recently, I'd say starting around 18 months, and it has not been the linear for us. It hasn't been like he had this bout of separation anxiety for two weeks. And then it was done. It's been like here and there. And it's lasted a couple days or only one night. It kind of started when my husband and my oldest went on vacation. And he was cutting his teeth. So it was always like really hard to like, okay, is he cutting his teeth? Is it separation anxiety? Is it both? But I very much erred on the to he get his Tylenol? Did he get his sippy? So does he have a clean diaper is he fed, if he's hurting that I take care of that. And if I've done everything that I can to deal with that, then it's up to him to deal with the rest. And he needs to learn how to handle not being with us and what that looks like for him. And so I may be on an extreme side of taking care of it. But once all of his needs that I could I could handle myself were taken care of then I left the rest up to him. Yeah, no. And I love how you say that because you made sure that his needs were addressed. And what I think I think we get into Oh, I don't know, we get into the wrong headspace sometimes about separation anxiety, and we like feel like we need to protect them from having these feelings. And we don't write like we don't have to protect them from ever feeling uncomfortable from being frustrated. We want them to experience that. And my perspective is an especially in your case, you know, where I'm Murray has, for a very long time, fallen asleep on his own. He knows his crib, like that is his safe place. It's not a new foreign place for him. And so there's nothing wrong with us using and I would actually say that's a great everyday practice for him to learn. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss Like when you go into your crib, you're in a safe space that you know, and it's sleep time. And you always see that mom comes back Mom always comes back after a nap time Mom always comes back in the morning. I mean, what better way to deal with separation anxiety than that predictability and that constant like day in day out pattern that he's seen for months and months and months. Right. And I think that one of the important things to remember is is that this is like the first bout of separation anxiety that your kid's gonna gonna feel but then you know, our goal right as parents is to get our kids to a place of independence and whatever that means And so getting your kid to independently sleep and then to get your your kid to go to school, you know, they're gonna feel separation anxiety again there and then when you take them to college, like all of those things are different bouts of separation anxiety that you have as a kid and so these are skills that are going to continue to build. We just need that foundation. Yeah, I just think I don't know sometimes I just feel like he Know what nap time and sleep time is like this perfectly built in way for us to slowly work on that independence, right to just gradually get it there and there because they get that practice every day. And we also know from, you know, the mental health aspect, the stay at home parent aspect, even if you're not a stay at home parent, you need that time to yourself to you know, it's, it's I mean, I'm sure there are some families that do not mind being attached to their little ones 24 seven, if you've been listening to this podcast, you know, me and Kayla are not those families. That is not our experience or our personalities. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss And I don't think there's a right or wrong way. But for me, that is so important. And that nap and bedtime gives me what I need, gives them what they need. And I just think it's so usually important. Absolutely. Okay, so if you if we're talking about the separation anxiety, how can we get to a place where both we feel comfortable, and maybe we can kind of slowly get our kids to feel more comfortable with being separated from us. So I have a couple things that I recommend doing, you know, the first one, and this is something that we can be doing from the very beginning with our children is practicing leaving them, you know, so that that doesn't have to be like huge things where we're leaving them for days at a time or for hours at a time, it could literally be like mom, leaving the child with the other caregiver, so that she can go out and go for a 10 minute walk around the block, you know, practicing those bouts of being away, and you can work up to them being longer so that you can be gone for hours, you can be gone for days, you know if that's something that that you're wanting to do. But just having those blocks of practicing from the very beginning can really be helpful. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss And you know, with COVID, right now, if that's just leaving them with your significant other, or you know, with one trusted person that you're kind of having in your social circle, that's okay. If that's more people, if that's having a babysitter, you know, if that's having grandparents, watch them, whoever that may be, but get that practice so that they are familiar with being away from you and leaving your side. And I know, it may sound kind of silly. But we did do this last summer, I was able to let my mom come in a few times. And we actually, this is very type A of me that which is pretty on point. But I practiced with her and I did the Okay, I'm just gonna run, I would drop him off at my mom's house. But first, she would come over here because I know that this environment is somewhere that he knows. And so she would come over here would be like, Okay, I'm going to go get a sweet tea from McDonald's. And I believe and I'd be gone for literally four or five minutes, I'd come back in, maybe he screamed the whole time. Maybe he didn't. It really just depended and we got him. Honestly, guys, we like trained him so that he was comfortable so that my husband and I could leave for a half day for our anniversary. So it sounds silly, but you are essentially training your child to be ready for whatever it is. So and it hasn't worked. So we may be back to square one Now, again, but considering we haven't done it so long, but at that time it worked. Yeah, and it is it's just all about giving, you know, you are giving eimeria those experiences of being with someone else where you were away, so he could experience it, see that everything was fine. See that you come back. So next time, the idea is it's not going to seem as stressful because he will have that previous experience, you know, and, and yeah, that's huge. I cannot overstate how much that helps. The next thing I would recommend is not sneaking away. And I know this is a hard one. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss I think this is kind of the default sometimes. So you know, if we're experiencing separation anxiety at the daycare drop off maybe and so we stay with them, we get them distracted by something and then we sneak out. Or if we're dealing with it at sleep time. Maybe we stay in the room until they've settled until they're drowsy until they're asleep. And then we sneak out. Typically that's not what I recommend. Because that's not necessarily giving them that chance to process like Oh Yes, mom is leaving or dad is leaving. And then especially with sleep, what it can actually do is they start to learn Like, okay, when I fall asleep, that's when mom leaves. And so I'm gonna resist sleep more, because I really don't want mom to leave. And so it can kind of play into that just making it take longer and longer until they go to sleep, or you start experiencing the night wakings. And then you have to come back in, lay down on the floor with them until they fall asleep, sneak out again, and it just kind of starts to recap. So I don't recommend sneaking away instead, I would say, be calm, be confident. Leave like you normally would, you know, let them know, it's it's okay to narrate and say, I know you're upset. I know, you don't want me to leave. It's sleep time, I'm going to leave now be competent, leave. And and leave it at that, you know, yeah. And make it I mean, don't obviously don't make it rushed or anything but make it like she said very confident, very, you know, kind of quick, short term, so that it's not like, you know, if they start getting upset that you're like, comforting them. And like, I'm not saying don't comfort your kids, but you know, like so that you're not catering to them, you need like, you're the person that's in charge. So you, you know, this is how it's going to be and this is what we're doing. And I'll be back in a couple hours or whatever. So that they kind of know or if you don't know, our house, obviously our kids don't know time. So like I'll say, like, I'll be back before dinner, Mommy will be home for dinner. So that they can kind of understand that mommy is coming back and she'll be eating with us or whatever that looks like. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point, Kayla, like when we linger, that shows them that we are after our Well, that's you. Yes, yes, it shows that. Okay, there's a cause and effect here. And that definitely happens as they get older. It's, it's not, I would not say it's manipulation. But they can understand cause and effect I do this mom responds this way. Yeah, so it's normal for them to use those patterns and to play off those patterns. But then also lingering is going to show that you're unsure that you yourself are feeling anxious, and that is not going to help the situation. How to handle separation anxiety like a boss So usually, if we're leaving, you know, either quickly, or just like we usually would, that is going to help convey that calm confidence to them. The third thing I would really recommend is just having your consistent routines. When you're dealing with separation anxiety, I know there's a strong urge to change up all your routines and to do things differently. But what you need to remember is that consistent routine to them, that is safety, that is predictability, that is comfort. And so when we change things that can actually add more anxiety into the mix, because they're like, okay, now what's happening this time and what's happening this time. Whereas if we just do the same thing every time and they know that routine to expect, they're not going to have that wondering what's coming next. Yeah, and guys, you don't have to be afraid to be, you know, to type a or whatever, I will go ahead and give you permission. Now I wrote, when I was pregnant with my second I wrote an entire binder that had different, like, different files in it of this is what we do in the morning. These are the breakfast that my son likes, like it was an entire binder guys, I'm not kidding. But the thing about that that was important to me is that I can't control when I'm going to be having the second child, right. I had no control on that. But what I did have control over was okay, he knows what bedtime looks like he knows that he will get to do A, B and C before bedtime, regardless of who is taking care of him. And so it was important for me that he felt safe, even if it wasn't me that was there. So I don't know, it's very, very important for me, for my kid to feel safe and wherever he's at. And so being able to give him at least that kind of made all the difference in me when I was gone, but also knowing that he was fine as well. Another vote for writing things down. I mean, when my first was born, I worked outside of the home and I worked weird hours. And my mom watched Ethan a lot when he was a baby. And I wrote everything down. And I mean, I think probably at first she was a little annoyed, but it really helped both of them to thrive. And it also helped me to know what happened, what she was doing. If it was a weird day for some reason know where it went wrong. Yeah, that's that's huge. I love writing things down and giving them to people and saying here, please follow this. Yeah, and I hope that one day We really can't get like our moms on to talk about what this experience was like for them when they watched our kids and like, what they would do differently, all of that kind of stuff, because I think it would be really interesting to get mother or mother in law's perspective of his parents. Ooh, yeah. And I know, we've talked about this, like, we know that they did things very differently from how we do things. So I like that I like that future episode idea. We're gonna have to work on that. Okay. So last thing I would say when we're dealing with separation, anxiety, and sleep, and I've kind of hinted at this the whole way. But I really just want us to be putting things in perspective. And just reminding ourselves that bedtime and naptime those are everyday, safe, predictable opportunities for your child to learn that you always come back, when you say you will, that you always come back, they know the routine, what better way for them to learn this and to work through the separation anxiety than in the safety of their home, you know, day in and day out with you. So I think that's huge. And I know sometimes, you know, we may think about separation anxiety in a daycare setting when you drop your child off with a different caregiver, and they may have separation anxiety. And yeah, that's frustrating. And that sucks. But usually, none of us are like quitting our jobs or calling off that day to stay with them during that separation anxiety, right? We're like, you know what, this is a part of life and we comfort them, we leave, we go about our day. But for some reason, when it comes to bedtime and naptime, it's a lot harder to kind of stick with our, you know, attitude, right? This is part of life, and we're still going to do business as usual. So I don't know where that disconnect happens. But I would just encourage you keep it in perspective. And just remember it is it's just a great built in way every day for them to figure this separation out and that you always come back. Alright guys, that's it for us today. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast about separation anxiety. And remember, if you can follow along on Instagram, follow all the sleeps. Carrie and I will be talking about separation anxiety throughout the week, so that you guys can get a little bit more help with that. And thank you so much for listening again, guys. We love you. Thank you so much for listening to the sleep talking moms podcast. 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